Cougar attack on toddler sets off debate

- September 2nd, 2011

cougar1 

The Vancouver SUN, earlier this week, reported on a serious cougar attack to an 18-month old toddler in Vancouver Island’s Pacific Rim National Park.

Here is the article by Cindy E. Harnett:

An 18-month-old boy, who was pulled by family members from the claws of a cougar in Vancouver Island‘s Pacific Rim National Park Monday night, is in serious condition after being flown to B.C. Children’s Hospital in Vancouver.

“He is being monitored closely,” said hospital spokeswoman Tracy Tang.

Julien Sylvester was walking just three metres in front of his grandfather and another adult when the cougar lunged from a forested area at the edge of the beach, Parks Canada confirmed.

The cougar was momentarily daunted by Julien’s grandfather, then lunged at the boy’s four-year-old sister. The cougar did not make contact with the girl, who was unharmed, Parks Canada spokeswoman Arlene Armstrong said.

“The cougar surprised them really quickly from the forested edge,” Armstrong said. “It was a very quick encounter.”

The grandfather immediately “got the child to medical attention,” Armstrong said.

Julien was taken to nearby Tofino hospital and then airlifted to B.C. Children’s Hospital, where his mother Sarah Hagar remained by his bedside on Tuesday.

“The family is focusing all of their energy on their son’s recovery and are asking the media to please respect their privacy today and in the days ahead, so they can concentrate on their son’s health,” said Tang, in a statement.

The attack occurred at 6 p.m. Monday night at Swim Beach in the Kennedy Lake day-use area of the national park, about 16 kilometres east of the community of Ucluelet, B.C.

Four officers from the Conservation Officer Service, tracking dogs, Ucluelet RCMP, and West Coast Search and Rescue launched a full-scale search Monday night to track and trap the cougar. About 20 Parks Canada staff are also involved in tracking, co-ordinating the search and communications. The search continued Tuesday.

If found, the cat will be killed because it poses a public safety risk, according to Parks Canada.

“The family members did everything right,” said Armstrong. “There’s no indication the family is at fault.”

Family members who witnessed the brief attack acted properly by maintaining eye contact with the big cat and aggressively scaring if off, Armstrong said.

Although the latest word is the young boy is expected to make a full recovery, Doctor’s say the child did suffer brain damage from the cougar’s jaw and teeth which had pierced his skull.

Now (as expected) the Animal Rights ‘do-gooders’ are out in full force running to the animal’s defence, following Parks Canada’s decision to hunt the cougar; labelling it as a ‘serious threat’.  

There are comments out there like; “The fact this cat did attack a child shows there is something wrong with it” and “A healthy, well-fed cougar would not attack a child in the company of two adults” and “It’s not the cougar’s fault for hunting for food”

You already know my thoughts, so what do you think?

Should any predator (be it a cougar, bear, wolf, coyote) which has attacked a human, be hunted and destroyed, or should it be left alone because it was only acting on its natural instincts?

Please feel free to way-in and share your opinion.

Outdoorsguy

Categories: Animal Rights

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116 comments

  1. Iggy says:

    caught in your own web of idiosy
    Carol before you start with your snotty attempt to outwit a Swamp Person
    take a spelling lesson

    now can we get back to talking about killing

  2. fishr says:

    @ Trapper,

    “Thanks for the heads up. I wonder though, who licenses them ? And under what legislation ?”

    Both organizations are registered charities that operate without financial support from the government. They depend upon private donations and are run by volunteers. The Rideau Valley Wildlife Sanctuary is located in North Gower and is licenced by the MNR. The Wild Bird Care Centre is located in Nepean and is licenced by both the MNR and the Canadian Wildlife Service.

  3. chessy says:

    Is there anyway you can talk to the sun staff and find out why your post count is not updated on the bloggers page.. its gettting tiresome

  4. Tom says:

    Sorry Carol

    You have gone to a site that talks about the sport of hunting and fishing. You have stated your opinion and others have challenged you on it. (some more vigorous than others) But remember you have been given a voice here, it may not be popular, it may be statements that could considered to incite others, but you have been given a voice. I have gone to PETA’s and other so called animal rights sites, and at no time has the moderator given me an opportunity to ask questions, given me an opportunity to refute many of their outragous claims, and to defend my beliefs. I have never hunted before but I understand that there are individuals that do, and I respect them because they believe in conservation, and are enviromentalists.

    I’ve also stated many times that there are hunters out there that do not follow the rules, that do not have the spirit of conservation, but they are very few. A minute minority. Just as there are a minority who drive drunk, beat their kids, and drive way over the speed limit. The many should never have to explain the few.

    So continue posting, but remember some of your comments have been insulting, and people tend to insult back. Stick to your point of view but don’t expect others to change their ways based on your opinions.

    Now I didn’t spell check, so please review my language skills as much as you want, but at least try to focus on what is being said rather on how bad the spelling and grammar are. No one is perfect, not even me.

  5. Trapper says:

    Well written Tom…..the ole “get more bees with honey than with vinegar approach”

  6. jeff.morrison says:

    Actually Trapper, I was thinking that Tom could be our new PR Man..a smart move, especially since he is someone who does not even hunt…and he still likes us!

    That speaks volumes!!!

    Outdoorsguy

  7. jeff.morrison says:

    Its funny Chessy, I have noticed that too..it tends to lag then catches up later on..you know, I think we’re too fast even for modern technology!

    Outdoorsguy

  8. Iggy says:

    Well said Tom,thanks
    but these people don’t know polite, that’s one of the reasons you can’t politely make your comments on the PETA sites. They know what’s right and what’s wrong, and they plan on telling you

  9. Carol kennedy says:

    This is getting way too tiresome.

    Let’s talk about hunting.
    I would really like to understand what you guys get out of hunting an animal. I’m serious.
    I’m sure that you all enjoy being out in natural surroundings, on a beautiful fall day. So do I. I enjoy hiking and I love the woods. I like to shoot wildlife with a camera.
    I just don’t get the killing part. In the case of the cougar, I believe that it is necessary to find it and kill it, because we can’t risk another attack.

  10. Alain D. says:

    Tom, your comments on this thread are very professional and I appreciate it! as Jeff put it “as a non-hunter it really does speak volume”…

  11. Tom says:

    Jeff, I can be persuaded with minimal cost, Moose meat once a year can cover it.

    Trap – thanks for the props. Figure maybe just maybe the left wingers will get confused

  12. chessy says:

    your currently at 43 on main page but 57 post…. tell them to get there butts in gear… it a glitch … people would post more if the count was up…. not every one is like me … checking all the time …

    back to the issue … why is it every time some one looses a fight on the internet they bring up spelling …. like the old days on the play ground…. get your ass kicked and the first come back is .your fat …… grow up people

  13. jeff.morrison says:

    Carol, there was an excellent article one time on hunter’s and why we/then hunt..Im sure Chessy could find it.

    It was summed up like this..”We dont hunt because he hate animals, we hunt because we love and respect animals.” It is difficult to put into words even for someone who writes all the time, but there is a connection there which is hard to put your thumb on. Trust me, for the majority of guys here the actual ‘harvest’ is really secondary to the hunt itself…and the respect for the game is question goes without saying.

    Besides hunting, many of us like myself enjoy photography and simple wildlife observation where not a drop of blood is shed. Its a shame that we are defined by a very small and brief part of the sport.

    Outdoorsguy

  14. Carol kennedy says:

    Thanks, Jeff. I appreciate your response.
    I’d like to read that article you mentioned.
    I find it hard to make the connection with loving and respecting animals and killing them, so maybe reading more about it will help.
    I know that I’m in your territory, on a hunter’s blog, and I appreciate your time of day. I also know that you guys are probably very decent men, not bloodthirsty killers.( even Iggy!)
    Perhaps you guys could also try to understand where I’m coming from.
    Now I have to get back to my animals! Enjoy the wilderness boys!
    I’m sure you’ll all be glad to know that…..I’m outta here!

  15. mcdan says:

    my opion for what its worth, i’m with chessy and i believe trapper, if that attack was in an urban setting or a high “traffic” area ie camp ground then i would say yes it needs to be disposed of. But in a wilderness area i would like it to be left alone and maybe post a sign warning of potential danger. I’ve been getting picture of sow and two cubs on my game cam. when i go to my spot i am very cautious making lots of noise going up keeping a close eye on my suroundings etc. i do get somewhat nervous but thats the chance I take. i backed out of a hike this past sunday because bear signs were to intense and i didnt want to push my luck.
    Carrol why do people hunt? well why do people farm? i’ve done both for some of the same reasons. Put food on my family’s table. i find the meat from wild game and from small farm tastier and healthier than store bought. you greenies would call that organic! hunting provides food, exercise ,camadery,family time,down time etc..we don’t just go out one day and shoot something. we observe our game in its natural setting,we’re observers of weather,conditions of our woods,waterwaysand wildlife.we hate poachers, abusers and the reckeless twits that try to associate themselves with us. we do love nature,yes differently than you do but we still do. we like, you take hikes,take lots of pictures,canoe our wonderful waterways,camp out etc.. there have been generations of my family that have been hunting going back to the late 1700′s in this country and there has been hunting since people have been on this earth. those are some of the reasons that i hunt caroll. and the hell with spell check it is what it is!!!!

  16. Rob St Denis says:

    carol … its quite simple … we get food out of it. The rest is a good hike with friends, learning about wildlife etc etc etc.

    It’s not really that hard to understand.

    While most people prefer to get their meat poorly cut and wrapped in plastic where umpteen number of people have handled it, and it is of unknown quality, hunters do the killing and cutting themselves.

    Simple enough ?

  17. chessy says:

    Why We Hunt

    By Randall L. Eaton, Ph.D.

    We hunt because we love it, but why do we love it so?

    As an inherited instinct, hunting is deeply rooted in human nature. Around the world in all cultures the urge to hunt awakens in boys. They use rocks, make weapons or sneak an airgun out of the house to kill a bird or small mammal. In many cases the predatory instinct appears spontaneously without previous experience or coaching, and in the civilized world boys often hunt despite attempts to suppress their instinct.

    The fundamental instinct to hunt may link up with the spiritual. An analogy is falling in love in which eros, the sexual instinct, connects with agape or spiritual love. Initiation on the path of love changes our life irreversibly. Henceforth, we shall know the meaning of our authentic love experienced with the totality of our being.

    When we fall in love, the instinctive or primal self merges with the spiritual. It is a vertical convergence of subconscious to superconscious, lower to higher.

    Hunting is how we fall in love with nature. The basic instinct links up with the spiritual, and the result is that we become married to nature. Among nature pursuits, hunting and fishing connects us most profoundly with animals and nature. As Robert Bly said in his best-selling book Iron John only hunting expands us sideways, “into the glory of oaks, mountains, glaciers, horses, lions, grasses, waterfalls, deer.”

    Hunting is a basic aspect of a boy’s initiation into manhood. It teaches him the intelligence, beauty and power of nature. The young man also learns at a deep emotional level his inseparable relationship with nature as well as his responsibility to fiercely protect it.

    Essentially, hunting is a spiritual experience precisely because it submerges us in nature, and that experience teaches us that we are participants in something far greater than man. Ortega y Gasset, the Spanish philosopher, described the hunter as the alert man. He could not have said it better. When we hunt we experience extreme alertness to the point of an altered state of consciousness. For the hunter everything is alive, and he is one with the animal and its environment.

    Though the hunter may appear from the outside to be a staunch egotist dominating nature, on the inside he is exactly the opposite. He identifies with the animal as his kin, and he feels, as Ortega said, tied through the earth to it. The conscious and deliberate humbling of the hunter to the level of the animal is virtually a religious rite.

    While the hunt is exhilarating and unsurpassed in intrinsic rewards and emotional satisfactions, no hunter revels in the death of the animal. Hunters know from first-hand experience that “life lives on life,” as mythologist Joseph Campbell said. The hunter participates directly in the most fundamental processes of life, which is why the food chain is for him a love chain. And that is why hunters have been and still are, by far,…

  18. chessy says:

    , the foremost conservationists of wildlife and wild places, to the benefit of everyone.

    Today as for countless millennia proper initiation to hunting engenders respect for all life, responsibility to society, even social authority, and spiritual power. It develops authentic self-esteem, self-control, patience and personal knowledge of our place in the food chain. According to Dr. Don T. Jacobs, author of Teaching Virtues, “hunting is the ideal way to teach universal virtues,” including humility, generosity, courage and fortitude. As I said in The Sacred Hunt, “Hunting teaches a person to think with his heart instead of his head. That is the secret of hunting.”

    Consequently, the most successful programs ever conducted for delinquent boys have focused on hunting. The taking of a life that sustains us is a transformative experience. It’s not a video game. Hunting is good medicine for bad kids because it is good medicine for all kids.

    Hunting is a model for living. When we hunt we discover that we are more than the ego. That our life consists of our ego in a mutually interdependent and transcendent relationship with nature. We keep returning to the field because for us hunting is a dynamic ritual that honors the animals and the earth on which we depend both physically and spiritually.

    While interviewing Felix Ike, a Western Shoshone elder, I asked him, “What kind of country would this be if the majority of men in it had been properly initiated into hunting?” He replied, “It would be a totally different world.”

    In a world imperiled by egoism and disrespect for nature, hunting is morally good for men and women, boys and girls. Hunters understand the meaning in Lao Tzu’s statement,

    The Earth is perfect,
    You cannot improve it.
    If you try to change it,
    You will ruin it.
    If you try to hold it,
    You will lose it.

    Some aboriginal peoples believe that the Creator made us perfect, too, and that He made us to be hunters, dependent on nature and close to the earth. Like Narcissus, civilized humanity has fallen in love with itself and turned its back on its hunting companions and its animal kin. Beware the teaching of the ages summarized in this admonition from Loren Eiseley, “Do not forget your brethren, nor the green wood from which you sprang. To do so is to invite disaster.”

    Disaster looms over us now as we wage endless battles with anti-hunters who do not understand that we are the tribe of wild men and women whose hearts hold the promise for recovery of proper relationship to the animals and earth. If we should lose hunting a far greater disaster will befall nature, society and the human spirit.

  19. Rick Poulin says:

    Carol I will put it in terms you may understand.

    “I enjoy hiking and I love the woods. I like to shoot wildlife with a camera.” that satisfies the voyeur in me and is great foreplay but every once in a while it is nice to have the “Big O.”

    The successful completion of a hunt is a primeval gut wrenching passion that is ingrained in the human psyche. True hunters can not ignore it any more than we can ignore breathing!

  20. GPG says:

    Carol, I’m glad to see that you took my advice to get to know a hunter before judging us.
    Let me try to put it into words…

    I”m getting ready for my first hunt next week, and I already consider myself a hunter, because I feel I’ve prepared myself adequately. It’s a respect for nature so deep that it goes beyond the kill, and beyond the food on the table (which is fantastic by the way).

    I have been preparing for my first hunt since January, but I know it’s been inside of me, part of who I am, since I was a boy. From the time a decision was taken to hunt, an entire experience has unfolded. I have taken the hunting courses in the spring, chosen my weapon carefully (a compound bow for me), read countless articles, spoken to many other hunters. I bought gear from camo to broad-heads, to coolers, printed and prepared maps, and visualized the hunt almost every night.

    When trying to figure out an animal, you must try to think of all the details. The way they think, they defend, they attack, the food and drink they eat, their moving habits, the land, etc. When you begin to think that deep, you start thinking about the whole ecosystem in which they are surrounded. You study the animal, you memorize maps, you learn the land. This brings an understanding and a sense of respect for the animal and for nature. That they are able to survive at all in these conditions is truly amazing.

    To finally meet one face to face must be (because I haven’t yet) incredibly aw inspiring. But don’t think about it too long, you have but a split second to take a perfect shot. It’s the culmination of months of preparations, and even generations of training and teaching into one single moment. The camaraderie and support from the others in the hunting group is essential to the success and the enjoyment of the hunt.

    There is ultimately (hopefully) a kill. A clean kill with a single shot to limit the suffering. To me it is not only the thrill of success, but an appreciation that such a beautiful animal has died for my survival. And when I sit down for a big bowl of moose stew, I will be satisfied to know that I have fed myself truly “from scratch” and I will pay tribute to the animal that has kept me, my family, and my hunting partners alive. This is something that the grocery store could never provide. That is hunting for me.

  21. Trapper says:

    QUOTE “This is getting way too tiresome.

    Let’s talk about hunting.
    I would really like to understand what you guys get out of hunting an animal. I’m serious.
    I’m sure that you all enjoy being out in natural surroundings, on a beautiful fall day. So do I. I enjoy hiking and I love the woods. I like to shoot wildlife with a camera.
    I just don’t get the killing part. In the case of the cougar, I believe that it is necessary to find it and kill it, because we can’t risk another attack. END QUOTE

    One word can describe hunting Carol “Sustenance”

    Trapping on the other hand is “population managment” and contrary to the opinion of some narrow minded people, it is a 100% renewable resource that leaves no carbon imprint, and protects and preserves the environment.

    I wonder; while out hiking and photographing do you wear polar fleece, or Columbia coats ?

    I wonder; When you go out dancing do you wear perfume, lipstick and mascara ?

  22. Rob St Denis says:

    trap: don’t tell her where castoreum comes from … if you do that we will lose a customer

  23. jeff.morrison says:

    I think everyone should know where castoreum comes from(& what its used for)..and its not those beaver tails you get down at Dow’s Lake either!

    They use it as a food additive as well..

    Outdoorsguy
    P.S. Of course the reality of it, for some, may be like watching that ‘hotdog’ vid as a kid…course, nothing could turn me off hotdogs!!

  24. jeff.morrison says:

    Ok, I grabbed this drivel from some ‘Anti’ website…this is their take on the evils of castoreum.

    I love the part where they describe Castoreum as ‘a product of extreme animal abuse’:

    Natural flavors…

    The name sounds innocent enough, but these mild-sounding words are used by the food industry as an umbrella term for some pretty horrible stuff, including certain ingredients that come from extreme animal abuse.

    The exact definition of natural flavors from the Code of Federal Regulations is as follows:

    “The term natural flavor or natural flavoring means the essential oil, oleoresin, essence or extractive, protein hydrolysate, distillate, or any product of roasting, heating or enzymolysis, which contains the flavoring constituents derived from a spice, fruit or fruit juice, vegetable or vegetable juice, edible yeast, herb, bark, bud, root, leaf or similar plant material, meat, seafood, poultry, eggs, dairy products, or fermentation products thereof, whose significant function in food is flavoring rather than nutritional.”

    When the phrase ‘natural flavors’ appears on a package, the best move is to call the company and find out what the flavors are actually made from. Of course, I say this assuming that we’re all the kind of people who would be horrified to find out that we might have come close to ingesting fluid from the sex glands of beavers.

    Think that sounds absurd? Then you must not have heard of castoreum, which is “used extensively in perfumery and has been added to food as a flavor ingredient for at least 80 years.”

    Castoreum is a bitter, orange-brown, odoriferous, oily secretion, found in two sacs between the anus and the external genitals of beavers. The discharge of the castor sac is combined with the beaver’s urine, and used during scent marking of territory. Both male and female beavers possess a pair of castor sacs and a pair of anal glands located in two cavities under the skin between the pelvis and the base of the tail.

    Castoreum is a product of the trapping industry. When beavers are skinned for their fur, these glands are taken out, and are sold after being smoked or sun-dried to prevent putrefaction…

    Well, that’s a relief.

    The European Beaver was hunted to near extinction, both for fur and for castoreum, which was also believed to have medicinal properties. The North American beaver population was once more than 60 million, but as of 1988 was 6–12 million, largely due to extensive hunting and trapping. Although sources report that beaver populations have now recovered to a stable level, some experts say that today’s American beaver population is only 5 percent of what it was when Europeans first settled in North America.

    Castoreum is used in “high class” perfumery for “refined leathery nuances.” It is also reportedly used in some incense, and to contribute to the flavor and odor of cigarettes. In food, castoreum is used to flavor candies, drinks, and desserts such as puddings.

    Grossed out? Horrified that humans think nothing of killing innocent beings so we can dress ourselves in their fur and flavor our candies with their secretions? I have a solution for you: Go vegan – really vegan. Don’t use cosmetics that are made using animal products, read the ingredients on food packages, call customer support when you see those scary words, ‘natural flavors’, and guess what? You’ll never eat anyone’s anal fluid again.

  25. Trapper says:

    QUOTE: The European Beaver was hunted to near extinction, both for fur and for castoreum, which was also believed to have medicinal properties.

    The North American beaver population was once more than 60 million, but as of 1988 was 6–12 million, largely due to extensive hunting and trapping. Although sources report that beaver populations have now recovered to a stable level, some experts say that today’s American beaver population is only 5 percent of what it was when Europeans first settled in North America. END QUOTE

    Very accurate statements and we have learned not to make the same mistake they made in Europe. Beaver populations are in fact maintained at a stable level as a direct result of proper population management practiced by trappers.

    Beaver are the second largest natural cause of damage to forests. The first being fire.

    I can just see Carol now frantically rummaging through her make up and perfume collection. ROFLMAO :)

  26. GPG says:

    “but as of 1988 was 6–12 million, largely due to extensive hunting and trapping.”
    And nothing to do with urban sprawl, right?
    “contribute to the flavor and odor of cigarettes.”
    That’s it!! I’m quitting smoking! it’s over. That’s what put it over the top for me. hahaha

    Does the fact that you write “The exact definition” insinuate that sometimes your definitions are not “exact”?

    The negative spin in that story is childish actually. Using big words like secretion, grossed out, external genitals, horrified, caviites, just to scare the princesses into going “vegan – really vegan”… I mean come on.

    Thanks for the laugh Jeff.

    Also, that story on hunting is a very good description of why we hunt.

  27. jeff.morrison says:

    Yes GPG, that was a real dandy write-up wasn’t it..hehe

    Outdoorsguy

  28. chessy says:

    should be a good write- up he is a PH.D they don’ t give that title away . PH.D Professional Hunter. Deadeye

  29. Carol kennedy says:

    Hi guys,
    I had to respond just one more time.
    First of all, thanks to all of you for your input about hunting. I can understand that the hunt is not just about a kill, but a lot more than that.
    When Eaton says,quote, ” hunting is how we fall in love with nature”, I can say the same when I relate it to walking, kayaking, or camping, or just looking out my front window.
    I grew up as a country girl, and I now live in 20 acres of coniferous/deciduous woods. I’m a naturalist, and like you guys, know a lot about many species of animals and birds from chickadees to great grey owls.
    I love to observe them alive and well. You have to agree with me that a dead buck isn’t as beautiful as a vibrant healthy one. I know,you’ll say, “the meat is beautiful”.
    What about your fellow men, who like me, don’t agree with hunting. Are they any less instinctual, and have they missed out on their “initiation into manhood”, ? as Eaton says.
    Many men love nature without becoming hunters. My late father was one of them, and he was an experienced woodsman, and conservationist.
    I guess that we can agree on one thing, that we have mutual respect for nature. At least you guys have rules and boundaries. I have a farmer neighbor who hunts at any time of the year, and indiscriminately.
    One more thing, and this is for Rick Poulin, I shoot with a camera, but I don’t compare it to foreplay, I actually compare it to the big O, only it’s over and over and over again, if you get my drift. When you shoot your gun, it’s over and done with, the animal has gone …. limp.
    So long, men in orange!
    :)

    I’m just curious about what you guys think about men who do not hunt, and like myself, enjoy watching a deer undisturbed in it’s natural environment.

  30. jeff.morrison says:

    No Chess, I was referring to the crap written about Castoreum..dont think there’s any PH.D holders there..hehe

    The other article was terrific!

    Outdoorsguy

  31. chessy says:

    @ Carrol yes a healthy duck is vibrant. but if it is not managed they will die a horrible death look at the snow geese . i hunted lake ontario and every day a woman total anti hunting use to snear at us everyday one day we shot a drake goldeneye she asked us if she could see it she said they are more beautiful close up . after that day she even brought us coffee for us to let her experince the bird close up she said she has only see them from afar. I can understand where she comes from and she now can understand where we come from .

  32. Trapper says:

    Carol, nice to see you’re opening up your mind a bit. We as hunters and trappers all love the same sights as you do when we see mother nature’s creatures alive. We also have to eat a few in order to keep the cycle going.

    Many of us also take in mother nature through a lens, be it a Leupold or a Nikon and the Big ‘O’ affects us all.

    I can’t help but notice however how many of my queries you avoided….If you’re truly finished with this thread (which I doubt) I invite you to get my e-mail address from Jeff and we can continue this debate with a civil tongue…..

  33. Iggy says:

    QUOTE”probably very decent men, not bloodthirsty killers.( even Iggy!)”
    hahahahaha

    Carol, you keep saying “that’s it”, but you keep coming back :)
    deep down I think you really want to meet some hunters hehe

    anyway Carol, I was pulling your leg earlier but now I’m about to get serious.
    Why do I hunt
    I don’t know
    but I love to.
    I also love to fish and walk in the wilderness without a gun in the off season, I love watching deer, I do it at my cottage all summer and in the winter I feed them. Not so I can hunt them, because I don’t hunt at my cottage. I feed them because I love wildlife. But I also like eating wild game. I only hunt what I eat, and if I don’t eat it, I don’t hunt it. Others hunt things like racoons, coyotes, and wolves, but I don’t. I have no problem with them hunting a legal species, I just don’t want to kill an animal that I don’t eat, I don’t really see the point.
    May I also point out that most times when I hunt, I come home empty handed, a wise old man once told me,
    ” if you kill every time you go out, soon there won’t be any left”
    I also canoe, kayak, hike and photograph, but what I love the most is being out at the crack of dawn on a frosty fall morning, smelling the freshly fallen leaves and not knowing what this next day will bring.

  34. GPG says:

    Carol, I love naturalists too. You can take wild pictures of me over and over and over and “O”, I promise I won’t go limp. Now stop teasing and either go away, or stay and play. GPG FTW.

  35. Rob St Denis says:

    Carol, when my freezer is full for the year my guns go away (figuratively, given I’m out baiting bear/wolf/coyote traps … and they sometimes are there when I am there, and I don’t want to be a tastier meal) … and the camera comes out. Hunting for me takes about 10 days of wandering to get enough for the year, the rest of the year is spent out in the bush, recording tracks, markings, scrapes, carcasses and the like, as well as check trail cameras to keep a good record of the populations in the area. This generally defines what is on the menu that year. A rough summer last year meant my rabbit population was quite low, so no snow hare cacciatore for us this past winter.

    As hunters we do not go out and shoot the first thing that moves to get a head on our wall, wiping out the population is counter productive as it leads to less for the following year. The saame can be said about not managing an over population, leaving that means an over abundance of predators, who will wipe out their food source and starve themselves; or worse, have disease wipe out the population at large (see cwd down south where folks are less apt at hunting)

  36. Rick Poulin says:

    A few points Carol. “One more thing, and this is for Rick Poulin, I shoot with a camera, but I don’t compare it to foreplay, I actually compare it to the big O, only it’s over and over and over again, if you get my drift. When you shoot your gun, it’s over and done with, the animal has gone …. limp.”

    How can you truly compare it if you have never tried it?

    When I shoot my gun I reload for next time. It may not be as often as your over and over again but it can be done over and over again and I can assure you it is far more intense.

    “I’m just curious about what you guys think about men who do not hunt, and like myself, enjoy watching a deer undisturbed in it’s natural environment.”

    There is room in my woods for them and I welcome them to enjoy nature as they see fit. What I do not accept is their telling me how I can enjoy doing what I legally do.

    I am a hunter not a scavenger at the local grocery store.

    I welcome you to continue with the debate. We can both learn from it.

  37. Iggy says:

    I never really thought of it like that Rick, but I like the way you explained being a scavenger in the local grocery store, because that’s exactly what your doing, someone or something else has done your dirty work and now your there to scrape up the remnants, kind of like a turkey vulture or a s#!t hawk at a McDonalds

  38. Carol kennedy says:

    Hi, it’s me again!
    Honestly, this is the last time.
    First of all, thanks for giving me an idea of what the hunt is like. It’s a lot like the rush I get walking through the woods early in the morning. It’s an invigorating feeling, especially in the fall.
    My guess is that hunting must be some sort of challenge for you guys, and I suppose that’s why it’s called a sport.
    I’m glad to hear that a lot of you guys do take pictures, and even feed the deer. I saw some of your photos. You guys seem so fond of them, yet you want to kill one, or more in the fall. This I still find it hard to relate to. It’s kind of a contradiction.

    I had an elk at my bird feeder this past winter. She also hung out with the goats, but avoided my horses. She stayed around my place for about 2 1/2 months. She had escaped from a deer/elk farm many kilometers away and made it to my place. She was a beautiful animal, and she would let me feed her by hand and pet her.She was free to come and go as she chose. She disappeared in the spring, but I suspect that the farmer may have killed her.

    I have a question for you guys about different species. When we first moved here, we had many rabbits and hares, as well as foxes. Now we have coyotes and wild turkeys predominantly. I never see a rabbit anymore.We also have a lot of deer and partridge. Do you find that the fluctuation of species is cyclical, or permanent? My suspicion is that the coyotes have driven the foxes out . What do you guys think.

  39. chessy says:

    coyotes follow foxes and steal there cash of food.. we do not have partridge in ontario we have ruffed grouse (people call them partridge but its a total differnt bird) rabbits and hares are up in population in some areas and low in others. these populations are up and down like a toilet seat

  40. Trapper says:

    All are cyclical.

    What location are you in Carol ?

    It’s not only the wiley coyote that affects populations. A Fisher will clean out a rabbit population in no time. If you have chickens then be aware of the Ermine and Raccoons and Fox (chicken is their favorite meal).

    As for the ruffed grouse and spruce hens, a healthy population of Owl, Hawkes or even Osprey will add to the decline that the Ermine and Raccoons and Fox create.

    A word of caution re: walking in the woods in the fall with your camera, please make yourself aware of what if any hunting seasons are open and if you’re going to be walking in an area where there is an open season wear a sufficient amount of hunter orange.

    ps: I knew you’d be back…….

  41. Iggy says:

    funny, up until about 4 years ago we never had rabbit/hare near our house in the city, now we see them all the time, even more than cats. I think they are kind of cute, and I would eat them but they are un-huntable because we live in the city. Grouse are a little scarce around here and around our hunt camp, it seems that the wolf and coyote pops have kept their numbers in check. Too bad because I love hunting them and love eating them. Interesting how the populations go up and down and I doubt very much man has anything to do with it. If these animals were hunted hard all the time then man could be blamed, but I think their population rises and falls as the population of their predators rise and fall.

  42. Johan says:

    phew, this is one beat up dead horse…sooooo let me throw in another kick.
    As far as I am concerned if we play in a Cougar, or a bear’s back yard we should expect to be hunted. It’s rare, thankfully! Are those animals so intelligent as to know the ramifications of attacking a two legged variety of game? Wild animals hunt and kill to survive, DUH! It’s what they do and like it or not, we are made of meat.
    Should we sterilize every piece of wilderness that humans may visit so it won’t happen in future? I don’t think so.

    As far as the anti-hunt topics – I am a hunter, and I do not enjoy killing for the sake of killing, but nothing beats a nice soybean/alfalfa/corn fed venison strip loin steak. Now that’s organic as it gets.

  43. Carol kennedy says:

    Trapper,
    You’re absolutely right about the fishers. I’m sure that they would wipe out the rabbits. There were sightings in this area a few years ago and people were losing their cats. I saw one once, and I was impressed with their boldness, as it showed no fear at all. I doubt very much that it was rabid. I experienced a similar thing with a weasel when I was a kid. My Dad raised ring-necked pheasants, and a weasel had killed a few of them. The weasel didn’t move when we went into the pen. Same family, Mustelidae.

    I just want to leave you guys with a few words of advice:
    First of all, Trapper, I’m sorry, I just could not put the orange on. But I could wear fuschia pink, or red, in fact you guys might consider one of these alternatives. The pink could certainly test your manliness.
    Secondly, you have to make sure that those ball caps that you wear actually FIT your heads. Nothing worse than a hat a foot off a guy’s head, not too sexy. If you have a big head, get the adjustable kind.
    The same can be same for the camouflage garb; won’t get the ladies with this crap guys. At least change your clothes when you’re done with your,( cough,) hunting.
    Next. Try pizza once in awhile. My favorite is veggie, with hot peppers. In fact vegetables are very, very good for you, but I’m sure you guys have heard about this.
    I’ve come to the conclusion that the big bad hunter is not so bad after all, just different. You guys even has a sense of humour!
    One last thing: Please, please try to make it a clean kill, with as little suffering as possible, when you do get your chance.

    Enjoy the woods.

    I’m going for a spin in my little Miata. These days are numbered for convertibles!

  44. Iggy says:

    Ok Johan, everyone has an opinion and yours is fair, so that means by your reasoning, if a Cougar plays in our backyard, or a bear, it better know what it has coming to it. I don’t agree with that, bears hunt in my backyard all the time but that doesn’t mean I can automatically kill them.
    Humans hunt to survive too, no so much anymore because we have domestic animals, but at one time it was the only way to harvest meat, and the meat from a moose bear or deer is tastier and better for us. We shouldn’t sterilize wilderness, but if an animal decides it wants to eat humans, we need to protect ourselves and our families again that specific animal

  45. Rob St Denis says:

    Carol … something to consider … there are quite a few female hunters … so feel free to put away the failed stereotype of the manliness stuff …

    Hell my wife does all my cutting, she hunts, she traps, and even has her fur buyers licence to purchase and process furs.

  46. chessy says:

    @ Carol, i love veggies we eat pizza all the time with veggies cause the meat you get at those places are (lips and a$$hole meat) there is only one place in the area to get a good pizza. also your comment on a clean kill shot it is our duty as hunters to make darn sure about that and if not those hunters hear about it we have a camp policy that every one sights gun in and we make sure at camp it is we usually fire a few shots at a target to prove it. As far as the pink comment were it ever year for cancer, so i guess some hunters are the same or equal to you .. the reason why we were our hunting close is the same reason some of you parade around and cary signs about anti hunting this is our only way to show people that we are proud of hunting and hunting clothes are half the price of those columbia jackets or other sports named clothes and twice as warm

  47. Iggy says:

    aahhh That was nice Carol. Ever since I was diagnosed with high blood pressure and high cholesterol I’ve started eating way more fruit and vegetables, but I must confess, I still like red and white meat.
    We are forced to wear hunter orange, or I’d wear pink, I actually have a golf shirt that colour and when people make fun of it I tell them it’s not pink, it salmon :)

    Anyway, like I’ve said so many times, you do your thing, I’ll do mine, I won’t bug you and criticize you for the things that you do, like drive around in a car needlessly polluting the environment, as long as you leave me to do what I love.
    Have a nice weekend
    Off to shoot at the range on Sunday

  48. Carol kennedy says:

    C’mon, guys, lighten up.
    I thought you had a sense of humour. Keep your orange!
    Glad to hear that you guys participate in the breast cancer cause, (in pink) Chessy. Fantastic!
    I’m sure that there are many women involved with hunting, and quite capable, Rob.
    I don’t wear Columbia, Chessy.
    And I’m sure that you guys do eat your veggies, wonderful!

    I’m out of here!
    :)

  49. jeff.morrison says:

    Ok, I think I’ll put together a new post tomorrow, and perhaps we’ll find some more new friends.

    Thanks to everyone for their input..we just about made the coveted ’100 comments’ in 1 week mark; which I’m sure is some sort of record.

    Of course, in a few weeks from now there will be noone around here. We’ll all be out in the bush!(Well, most of us anyway)

    Outdoorsguy

  50. Alain D. says:

    smack *100
    great debate that turned out well!
    PS
    Sighted in the guns yesterday at a local hunt camp. I won the coveted 1st place Rifle With Scope trophy!

    Had a great day with my two sons! Priceless
    all ready for the hunt for that clean one shot kill

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