I’ve searched high and low for evidence that keeping score and standings in soccer, hockey or any other team sports for kids is a bad thing and I haven’t found any. If you have any peer-reviewed or other credible studies that can provide evidence to support the above, I would be very interested in reading it.
A few people have sent me this link to a very poorly written blog about scoring and standings in soccer. I was told via Twitter that it’s something I should read. Check it out and tell me what you think.
There are several errors in the piece I would like to point out. First, the author Bill Ault, errs in stating that the Winnipeg Sun failed to publish the sample size of a Leger Marketing survey we carried on the topic of keeping score for kids sports. We published the following information at the time:
* The survey was completed online from Monday, Feb. 21, to Thursday, Feb. 24, 2011 using Leger Marketing’s online panel, LegerWeb.
* A sample of 1,502 Canadians, 18 years of age or older, were surveyed.
* A probability sample of the same size would yield a margin of error of +/-2.5%, 19 times out of 20.
23% Keeping track of scores and wins and losses can hurt a child’s self-esteem and should be avoided for children under 13.
18% Don’t know/not sure.
59% Keeping track of scores and wins should be done at all ages. It builds healthy competitive instincts and character.
So Mr. Ault, we accept your apology.
The other thing Ault makes an error on is his claim that some media are taking the position that keeping score and standings are the primary factors in developing quality players, although as usual he provides no evidence to support his claim. I don’t know anyone, in the media or otherwise, who has advanced that position. Mr. Ault has fabricated that notion. The vast majority of Mr. Ault’s claims in his piece are, in fact, baseless.
Categories: General
Losing in sports to me made me realize at a young age that I wasn’t always going to have everything go my way. 100% correct in believing there is nothing wrong with scoring in sports.
Bill Ault is a moron who sounds like he’s sour from losing every little league game he’s ever played. Keeping score is part of the game and a valueable life lesson. Maybe Mr. Ault doesn’t think his kids need to learn this important lesson, and that everyone’s special just beacuse…. but the harsh reality is in fact the opposite. Have fun teaching kids to be self absorbed with a gross feeling of entitlement they don’t deserve.
Just to underline it’s not about keeping score – people as I’ve said are going to keep score no matter what. It’s about putting the emphasis on the development of talent at U10 and U12 instead of putting the emphasis of development.
No apologies I just wanted to know what the options were so in the world of polls over half the people surveyed were either undecided or thought keeping score could damage a child’s self esteem… and we know all respondents were over 18 how? On the internet no one knows your a dog or a cat for that matter let alone how old you are.
Seriously gentlemen, you too Mitch, it again is not about score keeping it’s about development.
We do a bad job of developing players – we have the same number of soccer players as the Netherlands – guess who develops more talent? Oh and by the way they don’t emphasize winning at U10 their either.
Just for reference here is one study of many on youth sports and competition including a good reference list of about another 40 for future reference and debate.
http://instructional1.calstatela.edu/dfrankl/CURR/kin380/PDF/Youth_Sports-Innocence_Lost.pdf
Thanks again for the space;
Bill
Bill,
You continue to discredit yourself, as you did in your inaccurate Canadakicks blog.
No, a majority in the Leger poll did not respond that they’re either undecided or think scoring can hurt a child’s self-esteem. Do your math. It’s 41%. 59% feel scoring should be kept for all ages.
How does a reputable polling firm know the respondents are all 18 you ask or whether the respondents are dogs or cats? You obviously know nothing about online polling. All polling companies are moving towards large online groups they pre-screen and access for specific polls. In many ways, it’s more scientific than telephone polling.
Do some research.
Tom you are correct I misdid the math. Thanks for pointing that one out.
Again the point is it’s not about keeping score although that seems to be the focus instead of fixing the development system of which your are very familiar.
Bill,
You keep saying this is not about keeping score. Well, you may want to tell that to the Manitoba Soccer Association and the Winnipeg Youth Soccer Association.
In a press release dated Feb. 8 2011, the groups in a joint statement stated the following:
“The Winnipeg Youth Soccer Association has joined with the Manitoba Soccer Association to lead a new task force designed to study and implement proposed new Long-Term Development guidelines in youth soccer. Among other things, the guidelines call for youth soccer leagues across Canada to stop tracking scores and team standings for players ages 12 and under.”
I don’t know what could be clearer. Are you suggesting the Manitoba soccer groups are misreading the LTPD policies? Perhaps WYSA spokesman Adam Dooley, who I know is reading this, could clarify. Adam, what say you?
Tom – in my article I pointed this fact out.
“No where in the proposed Long Term Player Development documents I have read does it say scores will not be kept. Even if it did say such a thing, this is nigh impossible as everyone involved in any game, parents, players, coaches and officials know what the score is. Even in non-organized sport (the near endangered species that it is) everyone keeps score.
The LTPD does call for no league standings and a jamboree format with an emphasis on fun at U6 – U9 and an organized schedule but no standings for the U9 – U12s. To point out the academy program in traditional soccer nation England, involving some of the world’s major clubs, does not keep standings (or tables if you prefer) until, wait for it U18.”
No standings but nothing about no scoring to my knowledge.
Bill
Bill,
So you’re saying MSA and WYSA are wrong, that they are misrepresenting the LTPD policies? I’d sure like to hear the MSA and WYSA’s response to that. Mr. Dooley?
Adam’s on my Twitter feed. Let’s se if we can bring him into the conversation here. Stand by.
Bill Ault, you are a total moron.
Tom,
I am personally not aware of how the MSA and WYSA are presenting the LTPD – but I do know there is no reference to the keeping of score in any of the documentation I have seen or read. I do however don’t believe in the article you quote that this is a quote from a representative of the Association – please correct me if I’m wrong.
Bill
Bill,
You said:
“I do however don’t believe in the article you quote that this is a quote from a representative of the Association – please correct me if I’m wrong.”
This is gibberish. What is your question?
Sorry – is this a quote attributable to someone at the association?
Bill
This is getting ridiculous. Didn’t soccer somewhere also bring in another new rule that if a team won by more than 4 goals then they were recorded as the loser? So the good teams resorted to scoring on their own goals to keep the game/momentum going. So the next step is to just not count at all? That isn’t sport. Kids need to also learn how to lose. That’s what makes them improve. That also gives some the opportunity to discover that maybe soccer isn’t their bag and they can move onto baseball or whatever else. We are slowly killing the human spirit with all this equalization nonsense and that serves nobody. Kick back against this kind of nonsense – it’s usually nothing more than a small group of social-engineer types that can be snuffed out by a few blogs and letters.
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the invitation. Part of the fault here is mine in not being clearer in our news release. For that I apologize. Let me explain. The intent of the LTPD guidelines that we have begun to review with the soccer community is first and foremost to improve skills development. If you read the Wellness to World Cup document (http://www.canadasoccer.com/wellness/Wellness_CoupeDuMonde.asp), you’ll see much of the focus is to coach the coaches so they can give players more time on the ball, more confidence and more success in the games.
We are also proposing that U12s move to smaller sided soccer (8 v 8 instead of 9 v 9) so that players get more time on the ball during games. And we’d like to discuss how we can move rec soccer teams to hold more practices. Right now, they often play 2 games to 1 practice. That ratio should probably be reversed.
Unfortunately, much of the media focus has been on the scores/standings issue. The LTPD guidelines call for us to stop tracking scores and standings for ages under U12. How that will be implemented here in Winnipeg is yet to be determined. Let’s be clear though: the games will be played and there will still be winners and losers. The players will still be put in a competitive environment where they can test their skills against other teams.
The important change we’re discussing is to stop tracking the game results in the form of league standings. That is where I should have been clearer in our news release. We know people – players and parents – will keep score, but the new guidelines call for us to stop publishing those results. Part of the reason for this is to reduce the temptation of coaches and parents to become overly focused on wins and losses.
This is similar to the premiership academies in England that don’t keep league tables until players are 16 or 17 years old. Australia (another World Cup country) has also adopted this philosophy for younger ages. And so have other jurisdictions in Canada.
We fully realize that these changes seem foreign and odd to Manitobans who have grown up with different youth athletic systems. That’s why we don’t want to rush into any changes. We have been mandated by the Canadian Soccer Association to implement the LTPD guidelines by 2014. How they look exactly in Winnipeg remains to be seen.
Will we still keep game sheets? Perhaps. Should we still offer a city championship tournament at the end of the year? There’s merit in that too. Should we phase the changes in? Maybe so.
But what excites me is that we’re talking about rolling out some much improved coaching and training methods that we fully expect will increase participation in the sport. More than that, if done well, we should see our soccer players become better and more competitive at every level.
We’ve got our work cut out for us and look forward to working with the soccer community to find the best way to implement LTPD here in Winnipeg.
Thanks again,
Adam…
Hi Adam,
No one is arguing against most of the good material and direction contained in the LTPD document. Can I ask you though, where in that document does it state specifically that scores shouldn’t be kept track of for players 12 and under? Maybe I missed it. But I’ve read through the document and I can’t find it.
Bill,
To what quote do you refer? Are you talking about the WYSA/MSA news release? If so, I believe Mr. Dooley can speak to that. He is the spokesperson for WYSA on this.
I’ve searched high and low for evidence that keeping score and standings in soccer, hockey or any other team sports for kids is a good & necessary thing and I haven’t found any. I guess we’re even.
The issue about keeping score & standings is that once you do record these things, the emphasis shifts from improving players to winning games. Once you put the focus on winning, you tend to go for the biggest and fastest players who can get by and overpower smaller opponents without significant technical skill. As they get older & the size / speed gap narrows, those young superstars lack the technical skills to succeed on the field because they never needed them before and never took time to develop them properly. There will come a time when “that kid with a big kick” becomes just another kid, and if he hasn’t developed anything more than the big kick, the game will pass him by.
At the same time, the smaller and slower (and at the ages of 6-9 January kids can be a lot bigger than August kids) – i.e the ones who don’t give you the best chance of winning games are the U6-U9 – level tend to get less playing time, tend to get “hidden” on the field, and are not given a real chance of gaining positive experiences with the game. Eventually, like any kid who just wants to play, they quit a game that doesn’t allow them to do that.
End result: Unnecessary attrition rate in kids who weren’t early bloomers, & a generation of early bloomers who struggle beyond “house league hero” status as they get older & the game gets more challenging.
By taking away the record keeping & keeping the emphasis on playing, enjoying and improving, you get all players out on the field. you get players who are not so afraid of failure and willing to try new things. They can learn from mistakes without the whole world crashing down on them for making them. They can figure out for themselves what’s a good and what’s a bad decision on the ball instead of having some coach screaming “BOOT IT!”
The golden age of soccer is very similar to that classic age of hockey. Guys didn’t play games on manicured fields or climate controlled rinks, they played in school yards & frozen ponds. You might go home knowing who won today’s game, but nobody kept stats or standings. You just went and played. and tomorrow you got another chance. And the next day, and so on. Soccer legends like Denis Law & George Best told stories of rarely getting a chance to play with an actual soccer ball (tennis balls = gold) as kids. Pele used to steal his dad’s socks to make a makeshift ball. Similarly, the legend of Wayne Gretzky started with an outdoor rink and Walt’s skill drills. These guys didn’t keep stats, they just played , fell in love with the game, and continued to try & improve.
They turned out ok, no?
One last queston for Tom: You weren’t *that* kid at school who kept track of his goals and assists in the recess ground hockey game, were you?
Bishopville Red,
Wayne Gretzky didn’t play in leagues where they kept score and standings? Where you from Red, the Australian Outback?
too funny
Hi again,
There’s a specific recommendation to keeping no standings on page 50 (paragraph 6) of this document: http://www.canadasoccer.com/wellness/2009_WellnessWorldCup.pdf
Best,
Adam Dooley
WYSA.
Adam Dooley tweeted me to say we can find language in the CSA report on the recommendation to eliminate “standings” for U12s on page 50. That wasn’t the question, though.
The question was, where in the CSA document does it say that we should stop keeping track of “scoring” in games for kids 12 and under.
You can post here, Adam. We don’t bite. Let’s get everything on the record. Clarity is a beautiful thing.
No, this is good. I appreciate the chance to get this out in the open. That’s where we want it.
Like I said before, we fully expect games to be won and lost. When we said in our news release that we are proposing a change where we don’t track scores and standings, the key word is track. By which I meant, the proposal is to stop publishing the results in the form of league standings. I apologize if that wording led to any misunderstanding.
Oh OK. So the story that all media outlets ran last month that MSA and WYSA were advancing the policy to — among other LTPD goals — eliminate scoring from soccer games for kids aged 12 and under isn’t exactly correct. We would still count the scores in games and players, parents and coaches would walk away knowing who won and lost a game. Correct?
I know WYSA and MSA are still working on how to implement the broader strokes of the CSA mandate. But would there actually be an official score or would it just be up to players and parents to keep score unofficially?
Tom,
After all that, you’re going to try to get pedantic on one little point? Care to address the rest?
I didn’t say Gretzky never played in leagues, I said his legacy started on the outdoor rink with Walt and skill drills. Obviously, at some point all these players moved into competitive streams, but they had spent a LOT of time in informal environments working on skills beforehand (and continued that habit afterward).
Organized hockey didn’t get a lump of clay named Gretzky and sculpt it into a superstar. Gretzky entered organized hockey with an established love of the game and ton more polish than the average kid because he’d already but in heaps of hours on the backyard rink. Once he started in organized hockey, Walt & Wayne kept up with the hours of practise outside his team’s ice times. In essence, he had a lot of playing time “not keeping score” that went a long way in developing his skills and willingness to try without fear of failure. When the record-keeping years started, he was prepared.
There’s no way on earth Gretzky could have become Gretzky if all he did was organized team games and practises. It’s the tons of hours away from organized hockey, with a dad who emphasized skill development, that allowed a squirt of a kid become the greatest.
That’s basically what the LTPD is trying to recapture; finding some good soccer “Walts” to help emphasize skill development and put kids in a position to fall in love with the game, stick with the game, and ultimately find success (however they may define it) with the game. But because we only get the kids for a few hours a week and there’s no promise that parents have any soccer acumen whatsoever (it is just shading into a second generation game in this country), soccer needs to try to make the most of the time kids have on the ball. First step: give all of them a ball and an environment where they can try new things without a coach shouting “BOOT IT!” and dumping him on the bench.
It was a sexy headline, wasn’t it? I wish the stories had been about ‘eliminating standings’… I need to take some responsibility for that. But you’ve got it, yes. For example, some people I’ve talked to think game sheets should still be kept (though that’s something we want to discuss more). And, while the exact look of things is yet to be established, the proposals that I’ve heard are that there would be no official scores kept… but will the ‘red’ team players know they beat the ‘blue’ team? Yeah, no doubt.
I’m very new to my role as Director of Communications at WYSA, having been elected at the AGM when these proposals were announced. One of the challenges that has been handed me is to do a better job of explaining LTPD among other things. We have some things in the pipe to do just that. I hope we’re more successful than we were the first time out.
Thanks for the forum.
All the best,
Adam.
Red,
Your argument is absolutely ridiculous. Of course we all played informal hockey — street hockey, hockey at the local rink/pond or wherever you lived, hockey in our unfinished basements. Yeah, we all get it. That’s where skills are formed. Informal sport where dads and other parents dedicate themselves to the sport. We still do it today, in case you weren’t aware.
What does that have to do with kids then playing in formal leagues where they execute their skills and where, oh my gosh, they actually keep score in a game and maintain standings? Do you really think Wayne Gretzky didn’t play in leagues where they kept score?
Red,
You know what, I have two kids who have played soccer since the 5/6 level and I’ve never had a coach “dump” anyone one a bench while shouting “Boot it.” That’s not only ridiculous, it’s actually humorous.
Ok Tom,
Let’s take this back to even simpler terms:
I’ve searched high and low for evidence that keeping score and standings in soccer, hockey or any other team sports for kids is a good & necessary thing and I haven’t found any.
Have you found any?
If you have any peer-reviewed or other credible studies that can provide evidence to support the above, I would be very interested in reading it.
Not keeping score for under 13′s is as ridiculous as not grading students in school until they reach Grade 7.
For Kindergarten age and lower, when half the kids are picking dandelions from the soccer pitch, it makes no sense to keep score.
Scores are to sports what grades are to school. These are goals to attain and a measure of what you have mastered. Anxiety arises when children (and adults) don’t receive feedback for their efforts. Keeping track of progress in school and in organized sports is a source of comfort for most; for others it lets adults know which kids require the extra attention, so they too can excel in their environment.
this seems kind of silly. If player development is the real focus, it seems to me that the way to emphasize it and still keep score is to implement a fair play rule. Everyone on the roster has to play in the game. This will take a way the temptation to only play your best players. How come I have never seen this suggestion put forward? Also coaches need to have training (and sometimes be pressured or reminded) that the goal is development and not just on winning. Only by changing the culture in the coaching ranks (and with some of the parents) will player development ever really become the focus.
That is like The plains of Abraham, no one wants to admit to defeat or victory! Teach better History! Winning or loosing builds character! It makes a person want to achive higher standards! What about no score rules with Team Canada!
@Ron Saurette.
Every community Centre REC sport in the city already is mandated by a fair play rule.
So, why would anyone be mentioning implementing something that already exists?
Why are keeping score and development seen as mutually exclusive? Nobody would argue that we need a greater emphasis on development. We need better coaches. Can we not do these things AND let the kids keep score? Most of the CSA position paper on this issue is productive and rational – let’s get better at what we are doing. I don’t however see the need to get rid of scoring because nobody has been able to convince me that good would come out of it. Rather than taking away the scores, let’s correct this imbalance by practicing more.
Taking scores away takes away the most fun part of the game for kids. Kids have a gleam in their eye before a game (especially a playoff game ) that is not there to the same extent before a practice or exhibition game. While we need to practice more, we will lose kids if we take away scores.
To Bishopville Red: Your logic is peculiar. One of the tenets of debating is that if you make an assertion, the onus is on you to substantiate the assertion. It is not up to your debating opponent to “prove” your assertion wrong. Soccer authorities in Manitoba (Winnipeg Youth Soccer Association and Manitoba Soccer Association) started this interchange by making the assertion that removing scoring and standings for kids 12 years old and under would facilitate player development. However they have not substantiated their assertion. It is not up to Tom Brodbeck or others to “prove” the assertion wrong. This “reverse onus” you are proposing would lead to a rather weird world. WYSA could assert that the planet Jupiter is made out of cotton candy and it would remain true until Tom Brodbeck comes along to prove it untrue.
If we take away the scores and standings away, why stop there?
The goals should be taken away too – their presence would tempt kids to score into them which would then lead to one of the two squads putting the ball into the other goal more often which would lead to one team “winning”. The ball might be a source of difficulty itself since some of the kids might keep it away from the others, thus “winning” the only game that would be left – presumably a big game of “keep away” by this point. The goals and the ball should be taken away to prevent any possibility of there being any winner. We might also discourage running – at least if this running has any appearance of one kid competing with another kid.
If we take away the scores, why stop there? The goals should be taken away too – their presence would tempt kids to score into them which would then lead to one of the two squads putting the ball into the other goal more often, which would lead to one team “winning”. The ball might be a source of difficulty itself since some of the kids might keep it away from the others, thus “winning” the game that would be left – presumably a big game of “keep away” by this point. The goals and the ball should be taken away to prevent any possibility of there being any winner. Running itself should be discouraged – especially if there is any hint of one kid competing with another.
I’m not sure how many times Adam Dooley has to say it before its sinks in, but the discussion is over eliminating tracking the scores and standings, not eliminating the competition in individual matches.
As far as the comments about never seeing coaches violate the fair play rule, or making sure that coaches teach development and fair play, you are living in a very sheltered world.
BTW, any comment on the Westwood Collegiate hockey team deliberately throwing a game. Helluva way to teach players. I guess that coach was just trying to develop some character amongst the players.
Geez, Freeman, you should really bone up on your reading. Did you not see the story today where WYSA is now backtracking on the score-keeping issue for kids 12 and under? Last month they said they would stop tracking score for kids 12 and under as well as eliminating standings. They’ve now changed their tune — because of the backlash — and are now saying scores will be kept.
And yes, they say repeatedly that they’re doing so because there’s too much emphasis on winning and losing — also known as too much “competition.”
Would it surprise you if I told you I was at the WYSA meeting when the LTPD was explained, and there was nothing about eliminating scoring, just tracking scores and maintaining standings for U12?
Didn’t see you there, but I guess you rely on “reliable sources.”
Um, Freeman. You really have to try and keep up here. Did you not see the WYSA press release issued Feb. 8 where it says WYSA and MSA will no longer be keeping track of scores?
“Among other things, the guidelines call for youth soccer leagues across Canada to stop tracking scores and team standings for players ages 12 and under,” the press release stated.
Have you read the press release?
Did you want me to send you a copy of it? Just to bring you up to speed, Adam Dooley is now saying publicly it was wrong to state they won’t be keeping track of scoring and they have reversed the decision. Clear enough for ya?
No need to be an ass. It clearly states “stop tracking scores”, you are the one that generated the sexy headline about eliminating scoring.
BTW, no decision was made, so there was no need to reverse it.
Freeman,
It’s fairly simple. Try to follow along. WYSA announced to the public that they will be “implementing” new rules for soccer as per the CSA guidelines. Among those new policies, they say they will be “implementing” the policy of not tracking scores. It’s all in the news release which you apparently have not reviewed. I can send you a copy if you want.
Three weeks later they say publicly that they have reversed that decision and that they will indeed keep track of scoring. But they only do so after it was revealed during an online debate here that nowhere in the CSA guidelines does it say to not keep track of scoring. Simple enough for you?
To, its your blog, so I guess you have to have the last word.
Games are not for development.
Games are to test that development against other players.
You do that with keeping score.
Games also teach players about mental attitude.
Often the team that wins, is the not the best, They simply worked harder and never gave up.
I can guarantee that Team Canada learned something about mental attitude, when they lost against Russia.
Practices and Skills Camps are for development.
By all means, have better player development. That’s what practices and camps are for.
Maybe the underlying message of the WYSA was that the coaches and parents of these kids are the bigger problem. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen an over zealous coach lose it on the sideline at an eight yr old hockey/soccer or whatever the sport of the day is. Furthermore, it pisses me off when coaches aren’t practicing fairplay, especially at such a young age. We all pay the same fees to have our children play and they should all be given the same chance to play and develop. Its interesting that at my beer league hockey I came up against a guy who said that kids need to know how to win and lose. When I suggested to him that he was the worst player on the ice and that he should forfeit his time to have the better guys on the ice, He looked like he was ready to cry. I guess he still hasn’t learned how to win or lose. Parents please get a grip. Little Johnny is as likely to make the BIGS as you are in winning the lottery!
@ Ugh,
“Games are not for development.”……..wh….wait a min….what the……obviously you have never taken part in any sports whatsoever, let me enlightened you….umh….another word for development could be PRACTICE, yeah coaches love using it because it DEVELOPS your players and plays, why not skip any type of development and just play games.
“I can guarantee that Team Canada learned something about mental attitude, when they lost against Russia.”…..wow….incase you haven’t noticed we weren’t discussing professional athletes, but you are probably right, since I’m sure those players got to that level because they had coaches who thought ” Games are not for development.”